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Geneology and Yahshua's Pre-existence

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LittleKangaDrinkingWine
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Geneology and Yahshua's Pre-existence

Postby LittleKangaDrinkingWine » 06 Feb 2008, 19:19

Hello Brethren,

On another forum we are debating the Pre-existence of Yahshua Messiah. One of the arguments that has been made is that in order for the prophecies to be true about the Messiah being of the seed of David (and I take that to mean from David's line), He had to have a physical Father of David's line, because of what the scropture says in Numbers 1:18.

Now it must be pointed out that we are not talking about heirs to property as in the daughters of Zelophehad in Numbers 36, nor are we speaking of Queens reigning on a throne, as in Queen Elizebeth, but we are speaking of a blood line or family tree. When one says what is your family name, that name goes through the father's house as Numbers 1:18 says, not the mother's.

So, I was wondering the thoughts of those on this forum (excluding Chuck, who is on the other forum as well and knows where this is leading, LOL) about how Yahshua could be from David's blood line and/or family tree if Joseph was not His physical father?

LKDW

chosen
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Postby chosen » 07 Feb 2008, 03:30

i thought Yahusha's mother was a decendent of David, too. i know the name is not followed through the mother, but that would still make Yahusha a decendent of David.

chosen

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 07 Feb 2008, 03:41

That's what i keep trying to tell him. :|
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

LittleKangaDrinkingWine
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Postby LittleKangaDrinkingWine » 07 Feb 2008, 17:07

Chosen,

What are your thoughts on Numbers 1:18?

Do you not see that the bloodline has to go through the Father's house, not the mother's

LKDW

chosen
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Postby chosen » 07 Feb 2008, 20:18

i can see what you (and the scriptures) are saying about the father's clan, but as we all know the mother's DNA is still passed onto the children as well as the father's.

i thought Yahuseph had some David in his ancestry, too.

chosen

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 07 Feb 2008, 21:29

Geneology and Yahshua's Pre-existence
Hello Brethren,

On another forum we are debating the Pre-existence of Yahshua Messiah. One of the arguments that has been made is that in order for the prophecies to be true about the Messiah being of the seed of David (and I take that to mean from David's line), He had to have a physical Father of David's line, because of what the scropture says in Numbers 1:18.

Now it must be pointed out that we are not talking about heirs to property as in the daughters of Zelophehad in Numbers 36, nor are we speaking of Queens reigning on a throne, as in Queen Elizebeth, but we are speaking of a blood line or family tree. When one says what is your family name, that name goes through the father's house as Numbers 1:18 says, not the mother's.

So, I was wondering the thoughts of those on this forum (excluding Chuck, who is on the other forum as well and knows where this is leading, LOL) about how Yahshua could be from David's blood line and/or family tree if Joseph was not His physical father?



Joseph WAS his physical father. The whole "virgin birth" story is a falsehood.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 07 Feb 2008, 21:33

i can see what you (and the scriptures) are saying about the father's clan, but as we all know the mother's DNA is still passed onto the children as well as the father's.

i thought Yahuseph had some David in his ancestry, too.

chosen


The issue is not about DNA, which people of antiquity would know nothing about. The patriarchy of the Scriptures is how YHW designed the lineage system.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 07 Feb 2008, 22:59

eriqbenel wrote:Joseph WAS his physical father. The whole "virgin birth" story is a falsehood.
To Eriq (Joey already knows what i'll say),

If Joseph was Yahshua's physical father, then Yahshua would be disqualified to inherit the Throne of David, because of curses pronounced on both Jehoiakim & Jechoniah & their "seed".

Jer 22:30 Thus saith YHWH, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
Jer 36:30 Therefore thus saith YHWH of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.


These curses were a "Thus saith YHWH" in both cases.
Note that Jechoniah (son of Jehoiakim) did reign, but for only 3 months, which evidently wasn't long enough to count.

I believe that Joseph's genealogy is only given to show the Jews Yahshua's legal right to the Throne in their eyes.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 08 Feb 2008, 01:56

deleted
Last edited by eriqbenel on 08 Feb 2008, 02:06, edited 1 time in total.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 08 Feb 2008, 01:57

To Eriq (Joey already knows what i'll say),

If Joseph was Yahshua's physical father, then Yahshua would be disqualified to inherit the Throne of David, because of curses pronounced on both Jehoiakim & Jechoniah & their "seed".

Jer 22:30 Thus saith YHWH, Write ye this man childless, a man that shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.
Jer 36:30 Therefore thus saith YHWH of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.

These curses were a "Thus saith YHWH" in both cases.
Note that Jechoniah (son of Jehoiakim) did reign, but for only 3 months, which evidently wasn't long enough to count.

I believe that Joseph's genealogy is only given to show the Jews Yahshua's legal right to the Throne in their eyes.


Chuck,

All of the above is very incorrect sir. I will try to show you the Scripture so you can see it clearly. I only hope you take heed.

First of all, in Yirmeyahu 22:30, Y' hoyakim is NOT the one being cursed. It is his son, Koniyahu being cursed. And even then, the curse is ONLY limited to the immediate offspring of Koniyahu, not any beyond them.

If you take a look at the entire chapter in context, this will be easy to see. You also have to look at the history as recorded in the books of Kings and Chronicles.

When M'nasheh was King, he was so evil, and turned the people against YHWH so far, that YHW promised to destroy Yudah. Whenever YHWH did something, He always made it known through His prophets. The prophet at this time was Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah). [2 Kings chp 21]

M'nasheh's son, Yoshiyahu tried to somehow "cool" the anger of YHWH by removing all the idols and evil from Yudah, but it was too late. Because Yoshiyahu tried, YHWH waited until he died before He carried out His promise of destruction. [2 Kings, chp. 23].

After Yoshiyahu died, Babylon invaded Yirushalayim while his son, Y'hoyakim was King and the destruction is under way. [2 Kings chp 24]

These events directly correspond to the prophetic words of Yirmeyahu. With Yudah now under Babylonian control and YHWH's plan in effect, King Yoshiyahu is now dead and Y'hoyakim as King, Yirmeyahu is given these words:

22:3 Thus says YHWH ; Execute you judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
22:4 For if you do this thing indeed, then will there enter in by the gates of this house kings sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, he, and his servants, and his people.




YHWH is talking about FUTURE Kings. After the punishment, if Yudah returns to righteousness. These Kings are STILL of the lineage of David, but there will be a gap of "Kingship" because Yudah is about to go into captivity!

22:6 For thus says YHWH to the king's house of Yudah;

You are Gilead to me, and the head of Lebanon: yet surely I will make you a wilderness, and cities which are not inhabited.


Why? Because of what M'nasheh did:

22:8 And many nations will pass by this city, and they will say every man to his neighbor, Wherefore has done thus to this great city?
22:9 Then they will answer, Because they have forsaken the covenant of their Elohim, and worshipped other elohim, and served them.


Yoshiyahu's son, Shalum, never got a chance because he was immediately taken captive to Egypt, this is why Y'hoyakim reigned. YHWH curses Shalum:

22:11 For thus says YHWH touching Shalum, the son of king Yoshiyahu of Yudah, which reigned instead of Yoshiyahu his father, which went forth out of this place; He will not return thither any more:
22:12 But he will die in the place whither they have led him captive, and will see this land no more.


The curse goes to vesr 17.

The son who did reign, Y'hoyakim is cursed next:

22:18 Therefore thus says YHWH concerning Y'hoyakim the son of Yoshiyahu king of Yudah;

This curse continues to verse 23. At verse 24, the curse moves to Y'hoyakim's SON, Koniyahu.

22:24 As I live, says YHWH , though Koniyahu, the son of Jehoiakim king of Yudah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck you thence;

This curse continues to verse 30, but verse 28 confirms it is talking about Koniyahu, not Y'hoyakim.

22:28 Is this man, Koniyahu, a despised broken idol? is he a vessel wherein is no pleasure? wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not?



So because Koniyahu, son of Y'hoyakim, cannot be King, BECAUSE OF THE WHOLE CURSE OF YUDAH, Y'hoyakim's dynasty is cut off. This is echoed in Yirmeyahu 36:30:

36:30 Therefore thus says YHWH of Y'hoyakim, king of Yudah; He will have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body will be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost.
36:31 And I will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity...
;


How will the be punished. They are punished with the punishment YHWH promised because of M'nasheh. This is not an everlasting curse.

...and I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Yirushalayim, and upon the men of Yudah, all the evil that I have pronounced against them; but they listened not.


The point is, these curse are specific to the event at hand, which is the inevitable destruction of Yudah into the captivity of Babylon. This has nothing to do with Yoseph, the father of Messiah. It is not an everlasting curse of generations.

NOTE: Y'hoyakim and Y'hoyakin could have followed in the footsteps of their father , Yoshiyahu, but it says they "listened not".

Once the entire curse of Yudah is lifted, David's lineage resumes the throne, otherwise, YHWH lied when he said this:

2 Schmuel
7:12 And when your days be fulfilled, and you will sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, which will proceed out of your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
7:13 He will build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.



1 Kings
2:45 And king Solomon will be blessed, and the throne of David will be established before for ever.


As for Y'hoyakiN's short, three month reign, I agree maybe it "didn't count", but even that is relevant to the entire event and has nothing to do with Yoseph.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

LittleKangaDrinkingWine
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Postby LittleKangaDrinkingWine » 08 Feb 2008, 02:22

Eric,

I would add that Yahshua was not to sit on David's throne but His own throne (Rev. 3:21). He was to be in authority over David's throne, not sit on the blasted thing. What an insult. The King of Kings is to sit on the throne of Israel. No, He has His own throne to sit on.

I like your post on the two curses. Good thoughts,

LKDW

chuckbaldwin
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Postby chuckbaldwin » 08 Feb 2008, 04:50

eriqbenel wrote:22:3 Thus says YHWH ; Execute you judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.
22:4 For if you do this thing indeed, then will there enter in by the gates of this house kings sitting upon the throne of David, riding in chariots and on horses, he, and his servants, and his people.
Hi Eriq,

I don't mean to slight your efforts, but i don't do well with lengthy posts, plus the fact that most of the names were difficult for me to relate to their familiar anglicized forms, i wasn't sure which kings you were referring to much of the time.

I did look up the passage above (after i figured out what book), and the context is referring to Zedekiah, who was Jehoiakim's brother and therefore not under the same curse. Not only that, but it was Zed's daughter who carried David's bloodline & Throne to Ireland in the 1st of the 3 overturns.

Here's 1 statement you made where you didn't understand or i wasn't clear enough (i hope i got the right names):
First of all, in (Jeremiah) 22:30, (Jehoiakim) is NOT the one being cursed. It is his son, (Coniah (aka Jeconiah aka Jehoiachin)) being cursed.
You are correct, sir. That's why i mentioned BOTH names in my post, and that's why i listed BOTH of the Scriptures. I should have said that 22:30 was about Jeconiah, since his name was not in that verse, but in v28.
And even then, the curse is ONLY limited to the immediate offspring of (Coniah), not any beyond them.
It doesn't say that.

In addition, both Matt & Luke use the word for "virgin", so in short, i agree with them, not with you.
Chuck Baldwin

By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

JMSchattke
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Postby JMSchattke » 08 Feb 2008, 05:49

eriqbenel wrote:Joseph WAS his physical father. The whole "virgin birth" story is a falsehood.

Ah, well, then, you don't believe in the Son of Yehvah, an interesting revelation.

If he's not the Son of The Mighty Elohim, then all the places where he says "my Father" and clearly mean Yehvah, all of those are lies... interesting.

Do you think the Messiah lied, or the people who wrote about him?

Ah, it doesn't matter.
Wandering Kernel of Happiness

kathybyers2000
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Son of YHWH

Postby kathybyers2000 » 08 Feb 2008, 15:38

I believe that Yahushua was the physical son of Yosef and became the Word, the only begotten of YHWH through his obedience. We can actually see this take place when the dove descends upon him to symbolize that YHWHs spirit had just be born in to Yahushua.


Just wanted to expand some territory. :D

Blessings,

Kathy

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 08 Feb 2008, 19:22

Eric,

I would add that Yahshua was not to sit on David's throne but His own throne (Rev. 3:21). He was to be in authority over David's throne, not sit on the blasted thing. What an insult. The King of Kings is to sit on the throne of Israel. No, He has His own throne to sit on.

I like your post on the two curses. Good thoughts,

LKDW


I agree. The "throne" Messiah sits on is not one like unto an earthly Kingdom. But I believe that the throne in Rev 3:21, is only one throne that exists in the Kingdom of YHWH, that is YHWH's throne. (that's a hint)
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq


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