"The fear of יהוה is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Set-apart One is understanding"

Geneology and Yahshua's Pre-existence

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eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 08 Mar 2008, 13:16

RESPONSE; What does Son of YHWH mean to you? Was He a son in the same way as us or was He more of a son than us?

Brother Arnold



Neither. You can't ask me a question and then limit how I can answer to the choices you give me? :D

I believe that "son of YHWH" is a "simile". In other words, His "sonship" is symbolic of what He came to do.

A simile is a figure of speech that draws similarities and comparisons between two different things. A simile is usually identified with the use of "like" or "as".

A head that is hard as a rock

A mind like a steel trap

In Yochanon 1:14, Messiah's sonship is referred to this way:

And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His majesty; the majesty AS of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth


In essence, the "Word that was made flesh" lived AS or LIKE the only begotten of the Father.

That opens up a whole other subject, Br. Arnold. The subject of deity. We might want to start an new thread on it.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

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Postby BrotherArnold » 08 Mar 2008, 14:36

RESPONSE; This still does not explain why I should not believe that the Scripture teaches a SUPERNATURAL birth.

How do you explain Luke 1:30-35 where it says that Mary would conceive in the womb and bring forth the Son of the Highest.

Then verses 34 and 35 says, “Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of Elohim.â€
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 08 Mar 2008, 15:03, edited 2 times in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...

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eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 08 Mar 2008, 14:56

[quote="BrotherArnold"]I still do not see why I should not believe that the Scripture teaches a SUPERNATURAL birth.

How do you explain Luke 1:34-35 where it says that Mary would conceive in the womb and bring forth the Son of the Highest.

Then verses 34 and 35 says, “Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of Elohim.â€
Last edited by eriqbenel on 08 Mar 2008, 15:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Eriq

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Postby BrotherArnold » 08 Mar 2008, 15:08

[quote="eriqbenel"][quote="BrotherArnold"]I still do not see why I should not believe that the Scripture teaches a SUPERNATURAL birth.

How do you explain Luke 1:34-35 where it says that Mary would conceive in the womb and bring forth the Son of the Highest.

Then verses 34 and 35 says, “Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that Holy Thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of Elohim.â€
Last edited by BrotherArnold on 08 Mar 2008, 15:29, edited 2 times in total.
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 08 Mar 2008, 15:22

RESPONSE; if she had sex with Joseph, she would not have had to asked the question, "How shall this be".

“Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?


I believe there are at least two possible answers

1. At the time Miriam spoke to the angel, she hadn't had sex "yet".

2. Miriam, had already had sex, and thought she could conceal it from the angel. Remember, the name Miriam means, "Rebellion".

This could be why she was "perplexed" when the angel told her she was "favored" (verse 29). She knew what she had done was socially unacceptable, and was afraid.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby BrotherArnold » 08 Mar 2008, 15:38

This sounds exactly like those I mentioned above :( I edited both of my above post. I think it good to kick these things around because it sharpens our understanding. I have confidence in you, that you will not continue this line of thinking once all the Scriptures has been examined. :o

I will not get to deep into this discussion because I believe you and Matthew can work it out
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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Postby BrotherArnold » 08 Mar 2008, 15:49

eriqbenel wrote:
RESPONSE; if she had sex with Joseph, she would not have had to asked the question, "How shall this be".

“Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?


I believe there are at least two possible answers

1. At the time Miriam spoke to the angel, she hadn't had sex "yet".

2. Miriam, had already had sex, and thought she could conceal it from the angel. Remember, the name Miriam means, "Rebellion".

This could be why she was "perplexed" when the angel told her she was "favored" (verse 29). She knew what she had done was socially unacceptable, and was afraid.


RESPONSE; if she lied to the angel, there would be no need for the angel to explain how it could be and if she had already had sex with Joseph, then there would have been no need for the angel to explain to her how this could be.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 08 Mar 2008, 16:40

This sounds exactly like those I mentioned above Sad I edited both of my above post. I think it good to kick these things around because it sharpens our understanding. I have confidence in you, that you will not continue this line of thinking once all the Scriptures has been examined. Surprised

I will not get to deep into this discussion because I believe you and Matthew can work it out


Oh my! Maybe I'd better take a closer look!


RESPONSE; if she lied to the angel, there would be no need for the angel to explain how it could be and if she had already had sex with Joseph, then there would have been no need for the angel to explain to her how this could be.


I don't understand your point. It seems that if she was trying to conceal her behavior, the angel, already knowing what she had done, just answered the bottom line of the question instead.

But as I said, it is more likey that Miriam hadn't had sex "yet".
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby BrotherArnold » 10 Mar 2008, 01:23

Read this article at http://www.themoorings.org/apologetics/ ... saiah.html I think they done a good job on defending the virgin birth.

Brother Arnold
Lunar Sabbaths is one of the most provable doctrines in Scripture...



Brother Arnold

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eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 10 Mar 2008, 01:45

BrotherArnold wrote:Read this article at http://www.themoorings.org/apologetics/ ... saiah.html I think they done a good job on defending the virgin birth.

Brother Arnold


With all due respect Brother Arnold. What we are trying to do is examine this issue step by step through this discussion so that everyone can see both sides.

Sending us to a website kinda defeats the purpose.

In other words, I've got several links I could post that do a great job of proving against the virgin birth, but I would like us to work it out together. Is that ok?
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

ErichMatthewJanzen
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Postby ErichMatthewJanzen » 13 Mar 2008, 11:34

Shalom, Brother Eric,

Just wanted to let you know that I've not forgotten about this thread, I've just been extremely busy this week. I have probably responded to your latest response to me around 50%.

Have a great day!
Matthew Janzen

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 13 Mar 2008, 15:15

ErichMatthewJanzen wrote:Shalom, Brother Eric,

Just wanted to let you know that I've not forgotten about this thread, I've just been extremely busy this week. I have probably responded to your latest response to me around 50%.

Have a great day!
Matthew Janzen


Looking forward to it! I realize you have been busy. So get the other 50% together, I can't wait to see!
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

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Postby ErichMatthewJanzen » 15 Mar 2008, 12:28

Shalom, Eric,

You wrote:

I think we are debating in circles here. I don't see anything in my sources that implies the "EVER" part or your definition of "MET" part. I will concede that the "strictest" meaning of "before they came together" is before "meeting".
However, there is no implication of the "ever". And the "met" part, even in the strictest sense isn't talking about two people who were never "acquainted". The "meeting" is about "assembly" "convening", "accompanying". There is a difference. Example:

I have met the people in the religious group across the street, but I have never "assembled" or "convened" with them. This term probably does not include "acquaintance".


I’m not going to press this issue any further though because as I’ve said in the last post, I do not think it is likely at all that Joseph and Mary had never “assembledâ€

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Postby Watchman555 » 15 Mar 2008, 16:58

by Eriq
Since you cannot use Yeshayahu 7:14 to prove this, you have absolutely nothing to support a prophetic claim that Messiah was to be born of a "sexually chaste" woman. No one in history, prior to the publication of Matthew and Luke, ever believed that.


Are you saying we should not take Matthew and Luke’s account of the virgin birth? Are you saying that their accounts have been twisted? Because I have to agree with Matthew on this, it seems evidentially clear that she was indeed a virgin that no man had gone into.

Matt. 12:25-27:
25 At that time Yahusha responding, said, “I thank You, Father, Master of the heavens and earth, because You have hidden these matters from clever and learned ones and have revealed them to babes. 26 “Yea, Father, because so it was well-pleasing in Your sight. 27 “All have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son wishes to reveal Him.

Luke 2:46-52:
46 And it came to be, after three days, that they found Him in the Set-apart Place, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers. 48 And having seen Him, they were amazed. And His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You done this to us? See, Your father and I have been anxiously seeking You. â€

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Postby eriqbenel » 15 Mar 2008, 19:10

I have no problem with this understanding of the marriage as I believe it completely aligns itself with what the torah teaches in Deut. 20:7 and 22:22-23. There is a difference between the wife of a man, and a damsel betrothed to a man. The difference would be that the latter hasn’t had sex with her husband and is still living with her father. What you’ve written here about the Israelite marriage process completely corroborates this understanding.


Absolutely. This is normally the way it works, I just meant to point out that it doesn't have to work hat way. A man and woman can legally have sex prior to living together if they are betrothed.

You say that my assessment is incorrect, but you just explained the Israelite marriage process above which teaches that there is a period between’s the father’s permission and the marriage or wedding feast. I agree that there is no betrothal without the father’s permission, but how does that disprove what I wrote?

(1) The Father gives the permission
(2) This means that the man and woman are betrothed
(3) The man leaves to prepare a home for the two of them and future children, thus the woman stays with her father and does not have sex with her husband.
(4) When the man returns the wedding or wedding feast takes place and then the marriage is consummated.

This is not entirely accurate. The "wedding feast" takes place AFTER the marriage is consummated. It is a celebration of a finalized marriage. You skipped a step.

(1) The father gives permission
(2) Man and woman are betrothed
(3) The man leaves to prepare a home, woman stays with father until he returns and SHOULD not have sex before leaving fathers house.
(4) When the man returns, he "takes" her to the newly prepared home where consummation of the marriage takes place,
(5) Couple returns again with blood sheet to prove consummation had occurred and THEN there is a "wedding feast".

The wedding feast is a celebration that the marriage has been sealed. This is also precisely the reason that sex before the woman being "taken" is a problem. It makes it look as though the woman is not a virgin at the time she moves in with the man, which is the basis for ridicule.

I agree. The father has already given permission, but the marriage is not complete until the couple is living together and has consummated the marriage with sex.


Socially, not "legally". Legally the marriage is complete once the contract is done, they are MARRIED!

[quote]If two people had sex before the woman moved in under the husband’s roof in that day, yes, they may have been ridiculed. The same thing happens in the “church worldâ€
Last edited by eriqbenel on 16 Mar 2008, 14:17, edited 1 time in total.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq


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