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Restaurants

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eriqbenel
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Restaurants

Postby eriqbenel » 19 Oct 2007, 23:45

Shalom all,

Something was mentioned to me once about eating out that I found very enlightening. Since I absolutely LOVE to eat out at restaurants, this shook me up a bit:

The Torah states that an stove, or utensil that comes in contact with "unclean" things must be either washed thoroughly before it can be re-used and/or destroyed if it is made out of clay.

Most restuarant kitchens probably do not distinguish between clean and unclean foods, and share the stove and utensils clan and unclean interchangably without regard. This would mean that if we eat there, we are probably eating "unclean" foods.

Many kitchens also do not properly "kosher" foods. Makin them unclean.

This would SEVERLY limit the number of restaurants to visit and/or items that can be ordered from the menu. What do you think?
Shalom in the name of YHWH,

Eriq

LittleBoyDrinkingWine
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Postby LittleBoyDrinkingWine » 20 Oct 2007, 00:04

Eric,

Can you give the text you are referring to?

LBDW

Jesse
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Postby Jesse » 20 Oct 2007, 11:07

Wayiqra 6:28
Wayiqra 11:32

I dont eat french fries because they have deep fried oysters and sausages in the same oil.
I dont eat steak that has been cooked on the same grill as pork Dont eat at any fast food resteraunt except for Subway.

LittleBoyDrinkingWine
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Postby LittleBoyDrinkingWine » 21 Oct 2007, 00:29

You got it Jesse,

You really have to look at the menu and have an idea of how they cook the food. If there is an unclean fried food on the menu, I'll avoid all fried foods from that place.

Now if Eric has a text that points to the cleaning of utensils and the like, then that changes everything. Even Subway would be taboo.

:wink:

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Watchman555
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Postby Watchman555 » 21 Oct 2007, 01:09

Shalom Everybody,

Here's the verses concerning the utensils:

Way. 11:32-35:
32 ‘ And whatever any of them in its dead state falls upon, becomes unclean , whether it is any wooden object or garment or skin or sack, any object in which work is done, it is put in water. And it shall be unclean until evening, then it shall be clean. 33 ‘Any earthen vessel into which any of them falls, whatever is in it becomes unclean, and you break it. 34 ‘Any of the food which might be eaten, on which water comes, becomes unclean, and any drink which might be drunk from it becomes unclean. 35 ‘And on whatever any of their carcass falls becomes unclean – an oven or cooking range – it is broken down. They are unclean, and are unclean to you.

According to verse 32 I know there hasn't been any unclean animals fallen upon my vehicles, but I know I have ran over dead vermin in the past, so wouldn't the wheels of my vehicle become unclean? Therefore transferring to the hubs, axle, springs, frame - the knee bone is connected to the thigh bone and the thigh bone is connected to the hip bone where my rear end is placed in the seat, which is bolted to the frame - - woe-is-me. Also in verse 35 not positive, have not searched out two witnesses on this, but have considered the fact that our oven has had a pork roast in it and the refrigerator might have had pork salad in it, connected to the plastic container that sat on the shelf; albeit before we moved in here. Oh no, we have an oven downstairs too. See what I'm saying? Any input. Sounds like this could be a serious issue....

Any thoughts on how we should view this taking into consideration

Hebrews 7:12:
For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

Hebrews 9:8-10:
8 the Set-apart Spirit signifying this, that the way into the Most Set-apart Place was not yet made manifest while the first Tent has a standing, 9 which was a parable for the present time in which both gifts and slaughters are offered which are unable to perfect the one serving, as to his conscience, 10 only as to foods and drinks, and different washings, and fleshly regulations imposed until a time of setting matters straight.

Here's just one example

Matt. 8:2-3:
2 And see, a leper came, and bowed before Him, saying, “Master, if You desire, You are able to make me clean.â€

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 21 Oct 2007, 21:05

According to verse 32 I know there hasn't been any unclean animals fallen upon my vehicles, but I know I have ran over dead vermin in the past, so wouldn't the wheels of my vehicle become unclean? Therefore transferring to the hubs, axle, springs, frame - the knee bone is connected to the thigh bone and the thigh bone is connected to the hip bone where my rear end is placed in the seat, which is bolted to the frame - - woe-is-me. Also in verse 35 not positive, have not searched out two witnesses on this, but have considered the fact that our oven has had a pork roast in it and the refrigerator might have had pork salad in it, connected to the plastic container that sat on the shelf; albeit before we moved in here. Oh no, we have an oven downstairs too. See what I'm saying? Any input. Sounds like this could be a serious issue....

Any thoughts on how we should view this taking into consideration.



I definitely see what you mean here Brother. Things can get really very tense and complicated start digging deeper.

If we run over a dead animal, should we wash our car and refrain from using it until evening. I believe yes.

The thing about it is that YHWH didn't create this world's system. A system which is contrary to His holiness. So the problem is, if WE (believers) are sooooooo attached to this system (and I'll be the first to admit it) then we SHOULD expect to find it difficult to fully obey His laws.

I don't believe He is concerned about the tedious incovenience it might cause to obey. The solution for us, IMO, and I believe according to Scripture, is to separate ourselves from the world, then obedience becomes less of a burden.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

LittleBoyDrinkingWine
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Postby LittleBoyDrinkingWine » 22 Oct 2007, 10:06

Did I miss something. What book is this verse from? :?:

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 23 Oct 2007, 14:31

LittleBoyDrinkingWine wrote:Did I miss something. What book is this verse from? :?:


It's a little book called THE BIBLE! :D
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

chosen
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Postby chosen » 23 Oct 2007, 15:20

"Also in verse 35 not positive, have not searched out two witnesses on this, but have considered the fact that our oven has had a pork roast in it and the refrigerator might have had pork salad in it, connected to the plastic container that sat on the shelf; albeit before we moved in here. Oh no, we have an oven downstairs too. See what I'm saying? Any input."


I think if you wash the oven, refrigerator, or car with soap and water it is clean after the eve. I don't think cleaning an oven or a car is too much trouble, if it's for YAHUAH, is it?

Num 19:22 ‘And whatever the unclean being touches is unclean. And the being who touches it is unclean until evening.’

Now as for subway being okay to eat at, don't they serve ham? Doesn't the ham touch the fingers/plastic gloves of the person fixing the sandwich? Then the same fingers/plastic gloves fix your supposedly "clean" lunchmeat? And what about the bread... does it have mono and diglycerides in it? Is it from a vegetable or meat source? What about the cheeses? Do they have enzymes in it? What about the source for that? Meat or veggie?

chosen[align=justify][/align]

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Watchman555
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Postby Watchman555 » 23 Oct 2007, 23:28

Shalom,

Personally I don't think that washing an oven, refrigerator, or a car are too much trouble. The question I have concerning the car is if you run over a dead animal your car becomes unclean now according to Lev. 11:32 mentioned above we are to PUT IT IN WATER. Speaking of utensils or "any object in which work is done" the problem I see is if you wash the outside of the car with a hose and even spray off the tires technically the whole car has not been washed, the whole underside, engine compartment, and also the interior of the car - I mean if the object becomes unclean doesn't the whole object need to be PUT IN WATER, not to mention the tires - there is a great possibility that these tires came from the carcass of dead animals that did not live millions of years ago. Concerning the oven Lev 11:35 says that the oven needs to be tore down. Seems to indicate it will never be used again. We might say - well those were earthen stoves. Ok, we'll give that one up, but still doesn't the entire stove need to be "put in water"? I don't think soap was mentioned at all. Now if we only wash part of the oven or car like going to the drive-thru to get the car washed does that only count as a sprinkling as described in Numbers chapter 19 or "put IN water" from Lev. 11?

Greg

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Postby chuckbaldwin » 24 Oct 2007, 02:37

eriqbenel wrote:
LittleBoyDrinkingWine wrote:Did I miss something. What book is this verse from? :?:


It's a little book called THE BIBLE! :D
Eria's sarcasm notwithstanding, i think he meant the book of Leviticus, Ch.11.

BTW, Who is "LittleBoyDrinkingWine"? Hope U don't drink too much. :lol:
Chuck Baldwin
By this shall all men know you are my disciples: if you have love one for another.

eriqbenel
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Postby eriqbenel » 25 Oct 2007, 23:01

Watchman555 wrote:Shalom,

Personally I don't think that washing an oven, refrigerator, or a car are too much trouble. The question I have concerning the car is if you run over a dead animal your car becomes unclean now according to Lev. 11:32 mentioned above we are to PUT IT IN WATER. Speaking of utensils or "any object in which work is done" the problem I see is if you wash the outside of the car with a hose and even spray off the tires technically the whole car has not been washed, the whole underside, engine compartment, and also the interior of the car - I mean if the object becomes unclean doesn't the whole object need to be PUT IN WATER, not to mention the tires - there is a great possibility that these tires came from the carcass of dead animals that did not live millions of years ago. Concerning the oven Lev 11:35 says that the oven needs to be tore down. Seems to indicate it will never be used again. We might say - well those were earthen stoves. Ok, we'll give that one up, but still doesn't the entire stove need to be "put in water"? I don't think soap was mentioned at all. Now if we only wash part of the oven or car like going to the drive-thru to get the car washed does that only count as a sprinkling as described in Numbers chapter 19 or "put IN water" from Lev. 11?

Greg




Hey brother,

The good points you make here can't be denied. I guess I was trying to say that we would just need to do "whatever it takes" to comply with Torah. And that means even of we think that what we have to go through is "too much" or "ridiculously inconvenient", then so be it.

So in the scenario you described, if we had to wash the engine, seats, tires, etc,... then so be it. However, I will say that since the Scriptures don't make a list of detailed instructions for EVERY single possible scenario, we can use the principles contained in what it DOES say and apply them to cases not specifically mentioned.

I would also be of the opinion the I would rather "overclean" the car out of the abundance of caution, than to underclean it. That's just my opinion, I would not try and teach it as a rule.
Shalom in the name of YHWH,



Eriq

Jesse
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Postby Jesse » 03 Nov 2007, 04:32

chosen wrote:
"Also in verse 35 not positive, have not searched out two witnesses on this, but have considered the fact that our oven has had a pork roast in it and the refrigerator might have had pork salad in it, connected to the plastic container that sat on the shelf; albeit before we moved in here. Oh no, we have an oven downstairs too. See what I'm saying? Any input."


I think if you wash the oven, refrigerator, or car with soap and water it is clean after the eve. I don't think cleaning an oven or a car is too much trouble, if it's for YAHUAH, is it?

Num 19:22 ‘And whatever the unclean being touches is unclean. And the being who touches it is unclean until evening.’

Now as for subway being okay to eat at, don't they serve ham? Doesn't the ham touch the fingers/plastic gloves of the person fixing the sandwich? Then the same fingers/plastic gloves fix your supposedly "clean" lunchmeat? And what about the bread... does it have mono and diglycerides in it? Is it from a vegetable or meat source? What about the cheeses? Do they have enzymes in it? What about the source for that? Meat or veggie?

chosen[align=justify][/align]



From what i know they change their gloves every time they make a new sub.
There does'nt need to be cheese in it :)
Ill look into the bread.

Thanks.

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loving this thread

Postby kathybyers2000 » 05 Nov 2007, 19:31

Shalom ya'll.

I just went to a two-and-a-half day retreat in NC at Hallelujah Acres. It is a christian-based farm and they offer much instruction in the way and importance of simply eating raw (well - 85/15). No meat (.) My husband says to me, 'but we are allowed to eat meat". True, we are - if it is a clean meat and properly prepared. However, when YHWH formed us, he set before us all the grains and plants of the field for "meat". This was His intended diet for man. As long as there is plenty of vegetation I don't see the necessity in eating animal flesh. Now if there were a famine in the land, I can see this being justified, however, here - there is definitely not a famine.

I would encourage all of you to check out a book titled "The China Study" by Dr. T. Colin Campbell, PhD. He did a fifty year study of the effects of animal protein (any animal based product) on life. His study is mind-blowing.

Just wanted to share. Makes the whole eating "clean" and "unclean" a lot easier. If all you buy at the health market is organic veggies, fruits, grains, nuts, and herbs you can't go wrong.

As far as the car goes, EEEEWWWW! I had never really thought about that. You know right across from the street from where my husband works is a company that cleans engines. We don't really hit animals too often (Praise YHWH - don't like my rushing about to interfere with life), but I say that this is something that should definitely be considered. Have any of you driven by a skunk carcass? SHEW-EEE! :? And it sticks to your car. Best to take it straight through the wash, but when you actually HIT a skunk it gets up under the hood and everywhere. It takes forever for it to wear off. Maybe it's YHWHs way of showing us the necessity of 1. preserving life and 2. cleaning up when we aren't able to (we have an accidental collision).

Anyway, very interesting discussion thanks for all the input.

shalom,

Kathy

ErichMatthewJanzen
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Postby ErichMatthewJanzen » 13 Nov 2007, 10:22

Shalom, All

I wrote an article on this subject some time back, and just thought I would share it with everyone here:

http://ministersnewcovenant.org/A%20Closer%20Look%20at%20Dietary%20Laws.htm

My wife and I are careful about where we eat out, but we still have a way to go at complete obedience to these laws of Lev. 11:32-35. It is wonderful to see others who are striving to obey Yahweh.

Erich Matthew Janzen


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